Bloomingdale's and Nordstrom pull out of CityNorth

The article says they've delaying until 2010 to see what the market does, but anyone with any experience in business knows this is just a stall tactic and in reality they're pulling out completely. And that Scottsdale has no hope of recovery in the foreseeable future. It's no surprise considering the fact that a $39,500 median income in Scottsdale, combined with insane consumer and mortgage debt, simply cannot sustain stores like Bloomingdale's & Nordstrom ... that's why the existing Nordstrom at Fashion Square sells nothing but Tommy Bahama crap in their men's department and hardly resembles a real Nordstrom location.

I'm curious if CityNorth will be completed at all, because even builders in real markets with real money are halting construction on projects due to funding drying up. No way a big project in a fake market with fake money will continue to get funded.

Anyway, thanks to Raven for giving me the heads-up on this - her original post says it best:

"No surprise here...the retailing accountants and investors crunched the numbers arriving at the conclusion that the target "affluent" Scottsdale consumers are drowning in mortgage/HELOC debt and dodging the repo man on leased luxo barges. There's no real money in Scottsdale, just a bunch of overstretched living-month-to-month fakes. Watch this project be slowly pushed further out beyond 2012 and maybe substituted with a Super Wal-Mart or Target."

I'd put my money on a Super Wal-Mart.

Comments

[Tyler B Harvey]

CityNorth is entirely located in the City of Phoenix, FYI.

[Frank Rumbauskas]

Yes, but if you read their marketing plan you will see that it is targeting Scottsdale as a market, hence the close proximity to Scottsdale but the location in the more pro-business City of Phoenix.

Kierland is entirely located in the City of Phoenix too but it markets almost entirely to Scottsdale as well.

These developments avoid building within the Scottsdale city limits due to the city council's fierce anti-business mentality and the fact that you will be picketed and protested and petitioned by Scottsdale anti-development nuts.

[Tyler B Harvey]

Actually, I'm sure CityNorth chose this location due to:

a. Its proximity to high income households relative to the rest of the Phoenix area

b. Good access to Loop 101

c. Phoenix's offer of $100 million in sales tax rebates.

Also, if you were to divide Scottsdale in two from Camelback road northward, the per-capita income for the north side (which you repeatedly mistake as median income) would be much higher than $39,500. In addition, there are few cities with a population of ~240,000 with a per-capita income as high as Scottsdale. I challenge you to do your own research.

[Tyler B Harvey]

I hate to double post, but Scottsdale ranks number 20th for per capita income for cities with a population over 50 thousand.

Most of the cities ahead of Scottsdale are indeed California cities, however, most of them have only about half or less than half of the population of Scottsdale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest_income_places_in_the_United_States#100_highest-income_places_with_a_population_of_at_least_50.2C000

[MG]

Thank you for the post, Frank. After what I experienced at NM "Lite" at Fashion Square, I left the Mall. I had intended to go to Nordstrom, but I felt that if the NM there was half-baked, then Nordies would probably be worse. Sephora was a Sephora "Lite" too - not like the one at SCP or La Jolla Towne Center.

In any event, when I return to Scottsdale later this summer & fall, I won't be going to the Fashion Square (or to any Mall).

Note to the Scottsdale NM sales associates (Chanel & L. Mercier):
Chanel Bleu Celeste is a new color combo only recently released in March 08 and not December 07 as you stated (and which I knew to be false). Best thing is to be honest with an informed customer and not lie. If you no longer carry a certain LM Glace, then upsell me on another one or arrange for one to be sent to me at home instead of being arrogant about the fact you don't have the item. btw, I dropped 4 figures in another dept. You have nothing, nothing on the NM associates on Wilshire or Fashion Island.

Californians: retire here only to regret it!

[raven]

Article follows:
What's the "glamour" in this?!??
Desperate Scottsdale businesses coming up with wacky ideas to drum up some traffic as real estate fake money vanishes....nice career path for the Scottsdale women..serve drinks and give manicures...If you want to prostitute yourself, at least do it as a pro and make some real money, you little teasing whores!

PS. I think the location is at the Scottsdale Airpark, touted as the bustling and dynamic business hub of Scottsdale.

AZ Republic

Drinking while having your nails done is perhaps one of modern living's great indulgences.

As the popularity of no-frills mani- pedi-places has sprung up, the glamour of going somewhere to be pampered with the promise of alcohol, dark lighting and the absence of harsh chemical smells remains a compelling reason to seek out the best salons, or to just go to a bar on a weekday night.

While the manicures are a more of a buff and polish affair, rather than a cuticle clipping soak and shape, the full cocktail glasses are reason enough to eschew the nail joint and hit the town.

While Monday night martinis and manicures are popular at Furio, Amsterdam and several other area lounges, Salty Senorita in north Scottsdale has just partnered with Teazze Salon to offer margaritas and manicures on Wednesday nights starting next week.

For $12, you get a manicure and a signature margarita, as well as a chance to catch up with the girls, or the clear-polish-loving man-friends. And if the idea of nail dust flying around your margaritas, or your chips and salsa, is enough to make you think of Montezuma's Revenge, know that the manicure stations are always a distance from the food and drinks.

Just a thought.

Details: 14950 N. Northsight Blvd., Scottsdale, 480-922-6274, saltysenorita.com

*
a

[Frank Rumbauskas]

Tyler, Tyler, Tyler. If I remember correctly you posted here a long time ago and got laughed off the board, but I see you're back for a 2nd try. Ok, here's my response to your drivel:

That link you provided has tons and tons of different lists that shuffle the numbers so many different ways that anyone can get on, depending on how the data is fudged.

The only REAL list on that page is the last one - top 100 US cities by income. As you'll see, Scottsdale is not in the top 100. In fact, according to that page, Scottsdale's median is LESS than the $39,500 I quoted.

Finally, those numbers are based on the 2000 census. It is a well-known fact that Scottsdale's median income has dropped significantly since then due to the collapse of the real estate and mortgage industries (40% of Scottsdale jobs) and the influx of minimum-wage trash and two-striker felons into the city. Did you even read the Forbes article, or any others that document this?

Finally, Wikipedia is open to public editing. Anyone can go in there and type in anything they want. That's why the Wikipedia Scottsdale page is totally laughable and full of misinformation - it claims that many people who live in Phoenix and P.V. actually live in Scottsdale, that Scottsdale is "affluent" and "high society" and "the Beverly Hills of Arizona" and other assorted nonsense.

Get a life. To Raven- thanks for another great link - your comment that "I think the location is at the Scottsdale Airpark, touted as the bustling and dynamic business hub of Scottsdale" cracked me up because the Airpark looks like run-down Mexico City construction and is a low-rent dump of an industrial park!!!

And Salty Senorita? Geez, that places is a sh*thole and the crowd looks like a bad frat party.

[MG]

Wikipedia has unreliable information and people can and do post false or misleading information on it. I am not saying that *all* the information is wrong on Wikipedia, just that one should not rely on it as a sole source for position back-up.

[Frank Rumbauskas]

Google is launching their own version exactly because Wikipedia is constantly abused and used for advertising instead of information.

It's full of misinformation - according to this list found on Wikipedia, Scottsdale is #7 in income just in Arizona alone. No way is it anywhere in the top few hundred nationwide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_locations_by_per_capita_income

[MG]

Raven: Thanks for posting that info :)
I had wanted to get a mani-pedi while in AZ, but i decided not to since I don't know if that State has health standards for nail salons/establishments or if they have laws, are they enforced???

In any event, having personal care at a bar - the patrons may just end up with a fungal infection :/

[Frank Rumbauskas]

MG - I almost forgot to mention - Nordstrom in Scottsdale Fashion Square is ground zero for the phonies and plastic queens. It's a total freakshow. I used to use the parking garage in Nordstrom and I noticed that when I'd buy something at NM and then walk through Nordstrom with the NM bag, I felt like I was in fear for my life since every man and woman in Nordies was giving me the look of death like I've never seen before. It continues to blow my mind that they get so downright angry at stupid sh*t like that. If these people had any sense of character or dignity at all they wouldn't care if my bag was from NM or Wal-Mart.

My first few years living there, I noticed that Scottsdale people always had an attitude like they were judging and looking down on me because I didn't have all the status artifacts. Then when I became a bestselling author and got a luxury car, watch, etc, they became even MORE hostile out of envy and jealousy. I suppose they simply hate everyone and have no friends. What a way to go through life, huh?

[MG]

What I did was not make eye contact with other shoppers nor look at them except to walk around them. Fortunately, I did not encounter any hostility - maybe because I didn't go to Nordstroms (why bother).

The only PWM that I saw were on the 2nd floor at Neiman's, everyone else at the Mall and around Scottsdale (North and elsewhere) were similar to what you'd see out in San Bernardino or Hesperia.

[MG]

Here is a link to the NY Federal Reserve. Features a dynamic mortgage map. You can enter the zip codes for Scottsdale and find out some interesting info re the debt situation there. I entered 85250 and the results were not good.

http://www2.newyorkfed.org/mortgagemaps/

[Frank Rumbauskas]

I'm confused, it appears that no matter which zip code you put in, the numbers are strictly statewide stats. Is there a way to pull up data by specific zip codes?

I did however go to foreclosure.com and looked up both Scottsdale, AZ and Newport Beach, CA since trolls on this site insist that Newport is fake too; here's what I found:

Scottsdale, AZ: 1,128 active foreclosures

Newport Beach, CA: 100 active foreclosures

If you figure in that Scottsdale's population is 240% that of Newport Beach, we can adjust the numbers accordingly and conclude that Scottsdale's foreclosure rate per capita is 470% higher than Newport Beach.

And they want to insist that Newport is the "fake" city???

Interestingly, I also ran the numbers on Paradise Valley and that "affluent" town has 288% more foreclosures per capita than N.B.

[MG]

RE: the link, Frank, what I did is enter the zip code in the Search box, like 85260, and then click on the color band you want on the screen's right (Alt-A, Delinquent, etc). The screen will enlarge and change to show the zip code area and then on your left, an info box will appear with the relevant data for that zip.

[Tyler B Harvey]

Frank,

The fact is that according to the latest hard 2000 census numbers (which may be seven years out of date, however the only hard facts that we have to deal with), Scottsdale has the highest per-capita income for any city with a population greater than 200,000.

In addition, you ask why Scottsdale is ranked number seven for per-capita income in the state of Arizona alone. That can be explained by that list you mention being the per-capita rank for all cities regardless of population. The list I quoted is for cities with a population of 50,000 or greater.

[Tyler B Harvey]

Oh, and once again, sorry for the double post, but I wonder how many of those Scottsdale foreclosures are because of overeager out-of-state investors?

That's a question you've never posed.

[Frank Rumbauskas]

Oh, Tyler......

Let me see if I have this right: I've posted the cold hard numbers on Scottsdale foreclosures, and now you're backtracking and blaming it all on out-of-state investors? Like CA isn't also full of out-of-state investors?

On this whole Bloomingdale's thing, here's the truth: The fact that they're pulling out of CityNorth doesn't prove Scottsdale's lack of wealth. What proves Scottsdale's lack of wealth is that Bloomingdale's never opened there to begin with. If Scottsdale had any money and was the "Beverly Hills of Arizona" that it advertises itself to be, Bloomie's would've been there years ago. Hell, I have two within 10 minutes of my house. Bloomingdale's hasn't opened in Scottsdale because Scottsdale is just another bland lower-middle-class suburb.

Even if Scottsdale had any money, I'm sure they'd skip Bloomingdale's anyway and stick with their tacky Juicy Couture and Tommy Bahama crap.

[MG]

Tyler B. - Sorry to intrude, but I have a question:

Was out-of-state investor income also included in the Scottsdale resident income data?

Investor here is defined as a person who purchased residential or commercial property and who is also included in the foreclosure data you referenced. Reason being that most investors lied about occupying residential property in order to secure advantageous interest rates on their loan terms. These investors actually live somewhere else, not Scottsdale.

My point is that although there *may be* a lower foreclosure rate among true residents of Scottsdale (this, I do not know, but based upon employment data, you may be wrong) the income attributed to that city may conversely be lower due to the inclusion of these out-of-state buyers (non-resident) incomes.

[Frank Rumbauskas]

Another thought - median income is not always a good indicator of real wealth. Look at these facts, based on REAL 2008 data (taken from Forbes' famous Top 10 lists):

Wealthiest zip code in Arizona: North Glendale
Wealthiest zip code in America: 92657 (Newport Coast, CA)
Wealthiest city over 100,000: Irvine, CA

But if you look at the median incomes for those cities, they're not dazzling, mostly because they are full of business owners like me who withdraw the minimum possible from our companies for tax reasons.

#1 median income in America? (Drum roll please) ... Yorba Linda, CA, a place most people have never heard of. (It's here in OC - birthplace of Richard Nixon.)

Having said that, you're not going to find business owners like me in Scottsdale. Trust me, I tried for 7 years but zero luck. Within a month of moving to Orange County though I'd met tons of people who are in the same boat as me. For that reason alone I'd probably never leave here. It's like living in Galt's Gulch from "Atlas Shrugged."

[Ed]

Frank,

Come on man you're playing both sides. You beat down on Scottsdale because its median is $39k. Then in the next breath you say well median income doesn't really mean much.

I'm not defending Scottsdale, but questioning your logic.

[Frank Rumbauskas]

Ed -

You're right, I did make two different statements; however, the point is that while average median income is not necessarily an indicator of actual wealth (net worth excluding real estate), when it's way down at $39k, there's no way you're looking at a wealthy town.

The zip code where I live now is rated the wealthiest zip code in America for net worth, yet the average median income is $366k. So even with all the business owners here who take minimal income out of their businesses, the median is still way up there.

[BB713]

Housing Hell in Maricopa, AZ! Frank, it's not Scottsdale, but it might as well be. A nasty little tale of the ongoing Phoenix housing bust from NY Times Magazine. Favorite paragraph:

"Although it was exciting to experience features you don’t often see in New York apartments, like the “great room” and the “media room,” it was kind of spooky being in a giant house with no furniture. Once the sun went down, the street was very dark and very quiet; the blank faces of empty houses were only occasionally lit by garage lights. There was nowhere to go and no one on the street. The brick walls on both sides of my house meant I couldn’t see my neighbors and they couldn’t see me. So I began to spend my evenings at Fry’s, the supermarket in the main strip mall on Highway 347. Fry’s had couches and wireless Internet and a flat-screen TV — and, more important, people. As it turned out, I was not the only person in Maricopa who thought Fry’s was a pretty great place to spend an evening."

S-C-A-R-Y!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/realestate/keymagazine/406ariz-t.html?hp

[raven]

BB713---great pickup on that quote.
Much of that soulless type of existence goes on here in Phoenix metro. I see and feel it everyday even in supposedly "desirable" North Scottsdale.Its amazing once you meet and talk to some of the few common sense people here, what a hunger there is for decent human contact.

[Kyle]

Why does everyone here insist on putting down Arizona? Why not do something productive with your time? BTW Mesa, Arizona had the highest graduation percentage of ANY American city, despite Arizona's low funding.